Rigs to Riches EP08: Eric Brewer - "I'd Kill to Go Back to the Beach": Real Estate Scaling

I’m Casey Gregerson, engineer turn investor, family man, and your guide to building real estate wealth the smart way. If you’re out there pulling long shifts, running teams, or just flying back from the rig, or that long business trip just in time for that family dinner, you’re in the right place. Each week, I sit down with guests who walk the walk. Some of these are operators doing flips, rentals, multif family, creative deals, buying businesses, and others are professionals who will help you actually understand things like taxes, underwriting, or financing, and much more so that you can invest wisely even if you’re short on time. Whether you’re looking for your first deal or trying to buy back your time, we’ve got you covered. This is Rigs to Riches, where we talk freedom, family, and flipping the script on your finances. Hey, real quick. If you’re listening to this while driving to the rig or on your lunch break from your W2 or late at night after the kids are in bed, I want you to know something. You’re in the right place. I started the Revive Network with one goal. Help a thousand families build financial freedom through real estate without sacrificing time with the people they love. That’s what I did. Went from shell oil rigs to flipping properties to coaching my kids football. It’s completely free. No courses, no upsells, just real strategies, weekly calls where we work through actual deals, and a community of families on the same path. Head to caseerson. com and join us. Let’s build this together. All right, guys. Welcome back to Rigs to Riches. We’re going to jump right in today with Eric Brewer. So Eric I’ve known for several years through the collective genius. He’s been one of the biggest leaders there. A guy that I’ve learned a ton from. I mean, we’re going to get into it today. From being a dad to being a leader of a company to being a great speaker and inspiring people. Eric’s done a lot of that stuff. And uh again, he’s a guy that I’ve looked up to and I’m excited to interview him and ask him some questions today. And you guys get to hear get to like sit in the seat right beside me. So Eric, let’s start off with uh your background. I mean, I I’m sure a lot of our listeners have maybe known you and seen what you’ve done with Novations and seen what you’ve done as a real estate investor, but go back before you started doing real estate. Where was Eric? >> I actually got my first professional start in the car business and started with just an entry- level job parking cars, supporting people in the sales and service departments, and made a good impression on the management there and got an opportunity to take on a salary job in the service department. did a pretty good job doing that for a year or so. Got recruited into the sales department and that’s where my life radically changed. I got into automotive sales at a Toyota franchise. Had a tremendous amount of success. Sold a boatload of cars and started making really good money and worked my way up through some different management positions at the car dealership and did that for about eight years till I was eventually one of the more senior managers across 200 plus employees. And then uh just kind of got burned out. My life was changing. I was about to have my first child and knew that it was time to make a change and got out of the car business and got into mortgages was my first job I guess technically in real estate. Did that for a year and my old mentor owner from the car business had uh exited the car business and was dabbling in real estate. had some luck and called me and asked me to partner up with him and start flipping homes in 2005. >> Wow. Okay. That’s what I was going to ask timeline. So, it’s 2005 started that year before that mortgages and then eight years before that the sales stuff. Okay. And you’re uh and just just getting the timeline too of the kids. So, that was you’re about to have your first son. Was that back in 2005? Is that a rougher? >> So, yeah, he was born in 03. >> 03. Okay. So yeah, I started uh the transition out of the car business and went into the mortgage business around04. >> Okay. >> And then did that for a year? And in 2005, I was approached by my old owner to get into real estate. >> Got it. Okay. Quick question. Are you tired of trading time for money, working long hours, but not building anything that gives you freedom? That’s exactly why I created the Revive Network, a free community where I’m helping a thousand families escape that trap through real estate investing. Every Friday we do problems to profits calls where we work through real deals together. Deal structuring, creative financing, how to get started. It’s all there. No charge, no catch, just genuine help. If you’re ready for that first step, go to caseydreggerson. com. Join the network. Let’s do this. We’ll keep going with that. So, how did I mean, I’m sure it was some Was the first flip a home run and just started flipping houses and crushing it or how how were the early days? I guess a little bit like that. You know, it’s funny if you think about like the real estate market back in 2005, it was much much different than what it looks like today. And our primary source of deals back then was the MLS. And it was competitive, but nothing like what we see today, right? So, like back then, we would go look at 10 homes, make an offer on eight, and buy one. And we were buying normally from banks and uh every once in a while an estate or a fixer upper that was on the MLS, but mostly probably 75% or more were bankowned properties. I’ll never forget I went out and made an offer on a house. I met a realtor that that we had worked with on a couple transactions or my partner had worked with on a couple transactions before me and uh it was a Spanish- speakaking gentleman and had some experience in investment real estate. But a real advantage was he with speaking Spanish, he had some contractor relationships and and brought us to the house and a contractor to the house so we could talk about, you know, what the cost of construction might be. And I’ll never forget this. It’s the first deal that I bought. And we sat there and talked about numbers. And then we agreed that the renovation would be whatever $15,000. And then me and the realtor went and negotiated a whole deal and bought this entire house for whatever we paid based on a $15,000 renovation. We go to settlement. I go back to meet the contractor there cuz we’re like ready to get started, right? Like we go back to walk through the house. Let’s get this whole thing. And I was like, 15,000, right? And he goes, yeah. And then he goes, well, what about materials? And I was like, what you you go buy them? What do you mean what about them? Like, what are you talking about? He goes, well, no, 15,000’s labor. What? You got to supply the materials. Go pick them up. So the budget turned out to be like 30, not 15. And you know, eventually the house got done. It got renovated. I think we still had one or two change orders, which I didn’t even know what a change order was at that point. I never forget I put I came from the car business. I put a big banner up on the front porch that said buy with no money down and bad credit because that’s how we generated leads in the car business. And I don’t know, 15 people called my cell phone anywhere from 8 in the morning to 10 at night. And I got lucky enough to find somebody, sent him over to a mortgage banker that I knew, got him approved, I sold him the house, and we limped out of there with like $6,000 profit. >> And uh, you know, learned a little bit from that. And then obviously over time made less and smaller mistakes, but I think our first year we bought 70 homes and then the next year we did 150. And then our third year we were doing 200 rehabs plus. >> Holy cow. and uh started to mix in some, you know, direct to seller. We started back then with like billboards and did, I mean, tiny little sets of direct mail and, you know, certainly didn’t have the marketing budget that we have today. But, I mean, up until 2016, I bought nearly all of my inventory off the MLS, especially post 2008 to 2012, it was like a feeding frenzy. I was very fortunate that my partner due to his accomplishments and you know selling off the the dealership was very liquid. So when everybody else was cut off from capital in 2008 9 and 10 we were self-funded >> and uh literally had I mean there was nothing easier to do than to buy a property at a discount in 2010. >> Like the whole world was on sale and you didn’t even have to look hard for them. There was signs everywhere, HUD sites, auction. com, Fanny May websites, the MLS was just riddled with short sales and foreclosures. And uh we just named our price and you know, so we really scaled actually in the middle of the financial crisis. >> Wow. >> Listen, I know you’re busy. You’re grinding, taking care of family, trying to figure out how to build something bigger. I get it. I’ve been there. That’s why the Revive Network exists. It’s completely free and it’s where I’m helping a thousand families achieve financial freedom the same way I did through real estate that works around your life not against it. Weekly problems to profits calls deal structuring help a community of people just like you. All free case. com join the revive network. Let me help you build this. So, first off, the fact you guys went to 70 that fast, like how did you guys, you said basically after like the first full year, was it more of his back background or more you guys were just like, we’re going to go all in and like most people don’t scale that many fix and flips. It takes a year. >> Yeah, I think it was I think the the one of the driving forces behind that was in the car business, you have to do pretty large volume to be profitable because the margins are, you know, if we made $2,000 profit on a car, that was like a lot. So you’d have to sell a hundred cars, right, to cover expense and cover floor plan and interest and pay salaries and make good money. >> So we just had this different like perception of what a lot was. >> Yeah. >> And I had a both of us had a background of what it was like to to work hard in the car business. I mean, I was literally working. It was not unusual for me to get to the dealership on a Tuesday at 8:00 a. m. and not leave till 1000 p. m. and that was like a 3 to 5 day schedule. And then Saturday, we were lucky. We had a short day that was like 8 to 6. So I mean I was working 75 hours a week. So you know, you get accustomed to that and you go over to real estate and you work 65 and you feel like you’re on vacation half the time. So, I think combined with like just being very volume focused in the car business, particularly when you sell new car franchises, like they’re all about moving inventory, right? Like, uh, a large portion of dealership profits are met by dealer incentives that are achieved by hitting certain volume milestones. So, you know, that’s why sometimes you walk in at the end of the month and a dealership will sell you a car for a $2,000 loss because they may get a $50,000 incentive from the the manufacturer for hitting a a volume target. So, I think that we didn’t know what we were doing and we had money, you know, very very fortunate that my partner had money and we were willing to work hard and if you just take two plus two, it equaled four. >> Yeah. And uh our four just happened to be you know 100 thou or 100 flips that second year. So >> wow. >> And diving into that just the managing the contractor’s part right. So yeah you had the capital the deals were out there and you mentioned the the trials and tribulations to the first one which we all go through. >> Yeah. >> How did you get or I mean were you leveraged a little bit of that past experience or you just had the right connections? How did you guys scale that without that being a dumpster fire of consc you know? I don’t know that it wasn’t I I mean I I think it it was just manageable. The biggest thing we did was higher like once it started to unravel and become too big of a dumpster fire either myself more than likely my partner who was more experienced just in business and management and those types of decisions recognized like hey like you and I have got us this far but we should probably get somebody in here that knows a little something about construction and project management. So, you know, we hired one or two people with a really really strong background in operations that took over the construction portion of that. And uh that was monumental. I mean, to to to allow me to remove myself from an operations role, overseeing project management, and then be able to spend way more time focusing on sales and, you know, the acquisitions part of the business, I think, was a pivotal part for us. And that was probably 3 years in when we were doing 150 200 flips and could really feel it starting to potentially spiral out of control. I can still remember some of my days back then where literally I was just in my car for 12 hours a day visiting job sites, trying to stop at properties to visit, to walk, to make an offer in between. Nothing worse than showing up to a job site at one in the afternoon and you’re just convinced it’s going to be done Tuesday and it’s probably just this busy work site with just music playing and all this amazing work done and you get there and the back doors kicked in. There’s no one around. There’s three cigarette butts laying on the kitchen floor, all the materials missing and the basement’s got two feet of water in it and it’s like, well, that’s not what I thought was going to happen. I got pictures set up for tomorrow, you know? So, you got a lot of turnover in our industry and and contractors. The general sort of genre of people you can recruit from are sort of, you know, moonlighter, you know, self-employed, chuck in a truck with two dudes with no driver’s license, you know, out doing some construction work and uh we just knew we had to be better, you know, so made a good hire and uh that gentleman’s name was Mike back then, Mike Shu, and he worked for us for a long time, seven years, and did a really good job scaling out systems and construction, which allowed allowed us to to really scale and do a good job. You know, in the middle of the meltdown of the economy in the United States, we were flipping homes and doing a pretty good job. >> Yeah. And that’s the other one I want to go into, Brewer, is like, so yeah, everything’s on discount, right? 2009, 2010, and I think I already know some of the answers because you mentioned you were already figuring out how to diso deals with like thinking about the banners and no credit and different stuff, but how how are you predictably moving product? I mean, I’m sure you’re buying at a huge discount, but like Yeah. What did that look like? What did Dispo look like in 2009, 2010 on these flips? >> Yeah, it’s kind of crazy. So, I did zero wholesale and I sold probably 70% of all my flips internally. So, I had three full-time sales reps. And we put advertisements in the newspaper. Like I would take out a halfpage ad in the newspaper and put a picture of the house, a description, and it would, you know, it have an example of the the price, the down payment, and the monthly payment. So, it would say like 169, $3,800 down, 7. 44 a month. And then there was like an 800 number on there. It sent to a Google Voice. I had a young lady that would take all those calls, figure out if they, you know, needed approved or were approved and then tee it up and set it up with a sales rep. So, uh, you know, Joe Sippellini. >> Yeah. >> Uh, that works. He I hired him when he was 19 back in 2007. >> Wow. >> As an inside sales rep. So, I had FSBO signs at all of my properties, banners, newspaper ads. That was very earlier in the Facebook days. And we would post stuff on Facebook, and the average house would get like 30 leads just from a Facebook post. And then we would take all of those people, and most of them weren’t approved or couldn’t get approved. And I did a lot of seller financing back then. And I sold about 75% of all of my flips I sold internally with my own FSBO reps. >> Nice. Because you weren’t an agent or a broker at that point, right? You were just N >> just figuring it out for sale by owner. Wow. But you were building out the systems. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> That’s fascinating. But you Yeah. And it makes sense. You’re doing this for sale by owner. >> Dude, that’s crazy. And so yeah at what point it was almost like if you think about it in 2008 n and 10 like the market was just saturated with inventory. >> So like the stuff that I would list with my real estate agents just felt like it sat and like you know they in most cases were not doing any really solid marketing of listings. I mean, might not be the most popular thing to say, but at least 50 to 75% of normal real estate agents just put a property on the MLS and hope that it’ll generate an offer, right? They’re not they’re not out there actively prospecting and marketing the listing. They’re really just waiting for another buyer agent to bring them an offer. >> So, you know, we we just weren’t comfortable and didn’t see the inventory moving quick enough. So, it took matters into our own hands and just built out our own sales process. >> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And again that background. Yeah. How much from your background from working at the dealership to maybe upbringing or like where or did you just naturally have you and your partner this sort of sales minds and built process driven or where where did that start to I mean obviously you’ve built on that since then? I mean we’re talking 2008 2009 you were doing this but >> like what got you there like Yeah. >> Yeah. I think the the the car business for sure. I mean, there’s a lot of parallels between that business and and this business, particularly on the used car side, where you go to auction, you buy a fixer upper car, you bring it back, you put new tires and detail it and clean it up, and then put it out on the lot and try and make some money on it. Not much different than buying a fixer upper and renovating it and then put it on the MLS and selling it for a profit. So, I think what happened is we learned about marketing in the car business. We learned the value of a sales process. We learned how to follow up. We created these systems and processes that we’re very fortunate to have basically built for us as a Toyota franchise. Toyotas is one of the most successful companies in the world. So, you know, we we learned most of that from the car business and more specifically working at a large dealership and having the support of Toyota as a franchise. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then just basically implemented those same strategies in the real estate business and had enough success to, you know, to sell a bunch of houses and make a good bit of money. >> Nice. Okay. Well, let’s keep segueing because I this is this is all stuff I didn’t know. Like I So, when I think of Eric, I think about like great leader, great in the front-end sales, like negotiating and getting deals done and building rapport with sellers and being good at that, right? So, but do you feel like early on you guys mastered sort of the back end, the dispo side? When did you guys start? You mentioned 26 when you had to finally start going off market, but I don’t know. It’s fascinating to me that it feels like you built out Dispo way better on the front end and then you guys got good at acquisitions. But tell me about that evolution. >> Yeah, so acquisitions in the beginning for the most part was very different because they were all bankowned. So it was more of a underwriting process than it was a sales process. So between 2008 and I feel it was like 2012 or 13 when competition started to come back. Like I mean literally between ’08 and 2012 like we were like the only people in town buying homes and fixing them up. I mean like nobody. >> And where were you guys at back? What what what market? >> Uh central Pennsylvania. >> Central. Okay. >> So within about two hours of Harrisburg. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So the the original sales process wasn’t very sales and acquisitions. It was very much like can you accurately predict ARV and are you able to estimate a true renovation cost and you know project what the profit should be that that was 90% of the job back then and then probably 2012 2013 when the market started to pick up a little bit we noticed that there was more competition on bankowned stuff and we weren’t the only buyer and there was you know multiple offers and we would sometimes lose out on houses that the year before we would buy at our number, right? So, we saw margins start to decrease uh because we were having to pay more for inventory and then started to expand our directtoeller marketing and then got active on TV and billboards and direct mail. I would say it was probably between 2013 and 15 where we really scaled directtoeller marketing and the directtoeller sales process. It looked much different in those years than it did in the beginning when we were ju just buying from the MLS. >> Wow. And then so you guys keep leaning into that. Yeah. Keep going. And so how does it how did it evolve to where eventually when you Yeah. Just keep keep me going past like 2016 once you guys So you guys have now got built out diso from the start which I love. Most companies don’t do that. It’s the opposite. They go find deals and then they figure out how to move it. You guys built that and now you got the direct to seller company. Keep it rolling. >> Yeah. So each of those have changed, right? Like even Dispo in 2008 where we were doing FSBO signs is much different than what it is today where 70% of our business is wholesale. You know why? It’s the same type of functions, but you’re clearly selling to a completely different unemotional buyer. There’s not a whole lot of financing that’s involved. I mean, maybe some hard money or private money or something like that, but not the rigorous process of trying to get someone approved conventionally to buy a $300,000 house and go through the normal, you know, mortgage approval process with appraisals and home inspections and all that crap. You know, each of those processes while they were built, I mean, we’ve had to reinvent those processes literally every couple years and it’s probably every five to seven years in the beginning, but like since co like literally every year I I feel like we go through pretty significant innovation. So like 2019, I got into turnkey. It was 18 and 19 was like a pretty good market, but there was enough inventory where stuff wouldn’t sell in a day and there was enough competition around where like getting a deal was hard. My cost of acquisition was going up, marketing expense was increasing. You I started poking around a little bit and looking for a different model. I was like, man, there’s all this segment of inventory over here that a lot of people don’t pay attention to. And it’s like the city rental kind of C plus style rental. And even then, I wouldn’t I didn’t want to buy it. not as a retail flip, >> but once I discovered turnkey, I was like, well, man, these deals pencil out really good as a turnkey. Like, I would buy the houses for 50, put 50 in them, and sell them for 130, and they would rent for 1,400. So, you know, when the rates were, I don’t know, what were they in 2018? Like four, four and a half, five, you know, someone could put 20% down, cash flow, 350 bucks a month, and have a 10, 11% cash on cash return. So, I got introduced to the turnkey model in Collective Genius. Came home, bought five of them, tried it, it worked, and then next thing you know, I’m doing 15 turnkeys a month. Like, I was like, I’m just going to go buy all of these. >> Wow. >> And everything was a turnkey. So 2018 to about 2022, most of our dispo was turnkey. And that was through aggregators or brokers that would run masterminds or these investor clubs. And then they would bring me these what they call laptop landlords which were, you know, high W2 income professionals that wanted to invest in real estate but needed more of a white glove service where they could simply put the 20 or 25% down, enjoy the benefits of depreciation, enjoy a little bit of cash flow and sit on the asset and, you know, wait for it to appreciate four to 5% a year. So, we did a ton of those and my model acquisitions and disposition was heavily focused on the turnkey model. >> I love it. >> Until 2022 when the rates doubled and then now I don’t sell any turnkeys like zero. I went from selling 180 a year to 200 or to zero. >> Wow. So in 2022, we had to like I mean I was building new construction duplexes like buying infill lots for 25 grand, building a duplex for 300 grand and selling them for 400. And in 2022 I had like six of those sitting and couldn’t sell them because when the rates changed like they don’t cash flow anymore and it was a negative cash on cash return and the cap rate was six but the interest rate was eight. >> Mhm. >> That dog don’t hunt. >> Yeah. >> Like it was crickets. Nobody, you know, used, it went from like 2021, people were fighting over them, and in 2022, I couldn’t give them away. So, converted all of those to like Airbnb and long-term rentals. Had a bunch of cash wrapped up into them, refinanced them through a local bank, held on to them, actually just exited one the other day, and that worked out really well. But, you know, at the time it required a big pivot on our part. So mid 2022, I went back to heavy wholesale and retail flips because as the rates started to increase that landlords couldn’t buy stuff in cash flow anymore. So I had to find a different buyer pool >> and the retail market was still pretty good. People were still buying at 5 and a half, six and a half. Wasn’t until they got to like mid7s where, you know, we started to see values, you know, dip a little bit and days on market start to increase. So yeah, I feel like our processes are rebuilt every year since 2020, every 5 to seven years between 2006. And I’ve I’ve had to change and innovate as much in the last five years as I did the previous 15. >> Wow. What’s your Eric, what’s your thoughts on just long term of turnkey? Some people say that, hey, that ship is kind of sailed because rent and price. I mean, it’s every it’s very market dependent, right? and you say rates come back down because I just know a lot of our listeners have bought turnkey and maybe they’re still finding markets where they can but what’s your overall thoughts on future of buying turnkey to your point of >> I think guys >> yeah the old model of turnkey is a little bit more difficult I think there’s some speculative markets where that those numbers still make sense like I think it’s very market specific there’s guys we know in the Midwest and St. Louis and you know some certain areas in Colombia. We we or Columbus, Ohio and we just started a market out in Pittsburgh where you know it appears we could do turnkey out there. The values and the rents are are right around that one you know to one and a quarter% rule and as rates dip back closer to sub6 they actually pencil out. >> Mhm. I think the other thing is is what we the old model of turnkey might not be as desirable but homes are still appreciating. So like the the the model of of turnkey from like 2010 to 20120 was cash flow on day one like 12 to 15% cash on cash plus 3 to 5% appreciation a year. Now you get like one of those >> like if if you know you can I mean I’m still buying rentals. They don’t cash flow, but they’re still going up four or five percent a year. So, for me, you know, I I make my active income off of flipping and wholesaling, and then I try and buy about 25 rentals a year, and if they cash flow, that’s great. But really, after management and maintenance and all of that stuff, if it breaks even for me, and it’s in a decent area and it’s nicely renovated and I won’t get nickeled and dime on, you know, maintenance, I’m going to buy it. and in five to six years I have 60 $70,000 additional equity and you do that 25 times a year that’s a lot of money. >> Mhm. >> So I think just the model of turnkey is different than what we thought it was or what it actually was five six years ago unless you’re an investor like us going to direct to seller. It is really difficult to buy a property that cash flows on day one. >> Yep. >> Unless you’re you know you bought it and you leave all the equity in, right? But that’s y >> that’s difficult, you know, because as a wholesaler, if I bur it and leave all the equity in and I could have wholesaliled it and made 25 grand, like that’s a tough pill to swallow, right? Like it’s there’s nothing better than wholesaling a deal and making 2530K and doing that 10 times a month. Like that’s that’s a a really fun ride. Renting all of those and not making that money and leaving all the equity in there to cash flow 400 bucks a month is it’s not for everybody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it is tough. And it’s and just think it back to the the turnkey and the and the future of an appreciation, but you’ve kind of highlighted a little bit, Eric, if you’re not like you’ve you’ve basically come to grips with, hey, if I can get the appreciation and I can break even, I’m comfortable. But what would you say because again, a lot of our listeners are high W2 earners, like are you in agreement like if you’re active income, you’re making money there, like you should be making more appreciation bets versus cash flow bets. Is that kind of your thoughts or what would you say to people like that that are they income? I am not relying on my rental inventory to pay me enough passive income to retire. >> And while I’m actively working to have, you know, depending on what the average person wants, 25 to 40 rentals that cash flow 300 bucks a month, that doesn’t replace their current income anyway. >> So, it’s nice. Cash flow is amazing. Like, no one’s going to turn away from it. However, if that is the driving force of your analysis in evaluating a rental property, it I think you would leave a lot of potential appreciation and depreciation on the table if you were overly focused on cash flow. The other thing is you could end up buying a bad property. Like if you go to a D+ location with high turnover and high crime and no appreciation, you may get it to pencil out. >> Mhm. and cash flow, but then you sacrifice the other stuff, right? It’s likely to be maybe a pain in the butt because there’s high turnover, high evictions. You know, there’s there’s other people that I’ve heard say in the groups we run is you can’t eat equity and you can’t eat cash flow, right? So, if a property cash flows but you need to sell it, you don’t have any equity, you’re stuck. If I have a property that doesn’t cash flow, but I got a 100 grand equity, I sell it. I take my 100 grand right to the bank. Mhm. >> So, I think everybody’s a little bit different based on their retirement goals and how passive versus active they want to be. I think there’s a number of ways to look at rentals. Cash flow is not the number one priority for me. Appreciation, depreciation, and I come across enough inventory where it’s not a great flip. It’s not a great wholesale. Uh, however, it may cash flow a little bit or break even and it’s in a decent enough area where if I just hold it for five years, uh, the tenant will create $100,000 equity for me. So, it’s sort of like a, you know, savings account for me as well that I don’t have to contribute to. Like the tenant builds my equity, not me. So, I just think it should be all of those things should be in consideration and then that individual person should do what’s best for for them based on their situation. >> Yep. Now, you’ve hit it all. All the all the big benefits, right? From your cash flow to appreciation for get one of them. And one we haven’t talked a ton about is the depreciation, right? And I’m assuming, Eric, a lot of these I mean, what’s your just really quick your strategy and then also what you would kind of recommend for other people like how do you look at like right now we’re going to the end of the year. You could still buy something now and get do a cost segregation study, take potentially take 25% of the value of the property, write it off in there in year one. Is that a big thing that you guys are doing?

>> Yeah, as long as I plan to hold it for long enough where I don’t have to worry about any recapture or anything like that, and as long as I do, if I can just plan for it. But yeah, I mean, depreciation’s real money. I mean, if you save $100,000 in income tax, it’s no different than making $100,000. It’s it’s real money. Most people don’t realize it, but their tax bill is their largest expense. >> Yep. >> If you make north of $400,000, like paying in $100,000, $120,000 is way more than your mortgage or your grocery bill or hopefully it’s a lot more than what you’re paying in your car notes. >> But we don’t a lot of people don’t they get so busy working and that they don’t do tax planning. And for the average W2 employee, there’s other than buying real estate and depreciating it, there’s not many how else can you chip away at a $100,000 tax bill. >> Mhm. >> There’s not many ways other than buying, you know, and holding real estate. So, it’s a great way to save a tremendous amount of money in income tax that’s not readily available to people that aren’t entrepreneurs that can use deduction of equipment or, >> you know, uh have the ability to be able to do itemized deductions where they’re able to really chisel away at assets and investment in the company. And I mean, it’s a it’s an amazing way for W2 employees that benefit from having peace of mind and consistent income and the backing of a potentially a corporate job, but also live a little bit like an entrepreneur without the risk. >> There you go. That is gold, Eric. Like, no one’s ever kind of laid it out that way. You forget that. Yeah. us running our own companies, we got all these write-offs. But these W2 folks who are still doing really well, like doing what they’re probably best, like their best use of active income is that W2, but they can still get the write-offs to real estate. Cool. Eric, well, we we’ve gone, man, we’ve already gone maybe 30 40 minutes. Haven’t even talked about noations yet. So, when did Yeah. When did no kind of start to come into the equation? Was that shortly after the turnkey or is you guys always and and I want to hear the background of like what inspired it? >> Demand. So, in 2008, the market crashed. Now, prior to 2008, we were selling a bunch of stuff on the MLS and internally. And it was crazy, dude. Like, if I told you some of the loans that were getting done back then, I mean, I was living it firsthand. There was this down payment assistant program called Nehemiah. And most loan products cap out at 6% seller help. So, for anybody that’s listening, if Casey has a a house for sale for 200, a buyer could come along and say, “Casey, I’ll give you 200, but I want you to contribute 6% seller’s help. ” In most cases, that covers all of the buyer’s closing cost. So, it drastically reduces the buyer’s down payment. Well, in most cases, like FHA, Fanny May, they still require 5% principal down. >> Mhm. >> Right. So in that case, if Casey said, “Yeah, I’ll give you a $12,000 seller help. ” They’re like, “Great. ” They’d still need to put 3. 5% down, which on that house would be $7,000. Well, back then there was this other program called Nehemiah that would allow Casey to contribute 3. 5% on top of the 6% sellers help to a nonprofit. And the nonprofit would gift the buyer the 3. 5% down. So, you’d have a 550 credit score buying a home with no money down. >> Wow. >> Now, most of the time in that market with those loans available, Casey was saying, “Hey, I’m happy to help you, but let’s add the $12,000 >> to the price >> to the sale price. So, instead of two, it’s $212. ” And I don’t mind contributing to this down payment fund, but we might as well tack that on top as well. So, now it’s 215. So, they were financing a a property for 215 $216,000 that was on the market for 200 and the appraisal, you know, got done and that was fine. But then a year later when the market crashed and they were in foreclosure, they now owe 240 with late fees and penalties and interest and negative escros and now the propertyy’s worth 140. >> Mhm. >> So, they were $100,000 upside down. So in 2006, there was nothing easier to do than to get approved for a mortgage. If you had a pulse, you were getting approved. 2008 comes and that was turned completely upside. There was nothing harder to do than to get approved for a mortgage in 2008. Like banks were like, “We’re not lending. ” Like entire institutions that were lending billions of dollars a year said, “We’re not going to lend on mortgages anymore. ” So, conventional non-conforming loans were literally obliterated and the only loan product that was available was FHA subsidized, USDA, VA subsidized mortgages. Amazing that we have that in the United States, right? And >> people could still get a loan. Here’s the tough part for an investor. I’m buying a house, renovating it, and selling it in 30 days. FHA has a 90-day anti-flip rule. So, now all of these buyers are coming wanting to buy my property. I can’t sell it to them because there’s no seasoning yet. And I was in trouble. It’s like, man, I got all this inventory. I can’t sell it. Every single person that was like approved for a mortgage. I bet you can go back and see how what what percentage of mortgages in 2008 to 2010 were FHA. Historic highs, never seen before. And I had to figure out a way to be able to sell my real estate and continue doing business without recording the deed. M >> and I needed to specifically be able to do it to sell to FHA buyers. So, I just started digging and researching and yelling at my attorney to help me figure it out because my business is going to suffer. >> Mhm. >> And one day he’s like, “Well, you know, in these situations now, back then I’m buying short sales. ” Like, I mean, again, the market was just much much different. But I remember a lot of times I would get a good deal and buy it as a short sale and it came with a deed restriction from Fanny May where it was like you can’t resell it for 90 days. So there was deed restrictions. There was heavy heavy heavy regulation but specifically in FHA mortgages. So what he found was he’s like hey if we do a noation which at that point nobody knew what that was and he said it’s been around in contract law particularly in commercial and government contracts for 100 years. It means you replace your obligation in a contract with somebody else’s and that’s how it works. And I go how’s that work? And he’s like well here you would have this agreement and standard agreement of sale but you would include this language and then you don’t take deed and then when you sell it to FHA there wouldn’t be a seasoning period for the deed because you haven’t transferred the deed. And I go, “Well, let me try it. ” And I did. And I went to a public auction and I bid and the sellers wanted more money. And I said, “Well, I’ll give you 10,000 more if you allow me to close in 90 days and allow me to have access and I’m going to want to no. ” And they go, “What the heck’s that? ” And I said, “Well, funny you ask. My attorney drew up this contract. Here’s a copy. ” Now, the cool thing about auctions in in Pennsylvania is the attorney and the auctioneer and the seller are all on site. So, I literally had the attorney in front of me and the auctioneer and the seller and they said, “Yeah, that’s fine as long as you do the 10,000. ” And I said, “I’m happy to give you the 10,000 extra money. ” And I no a house and made like $25,000 selling it to an FHA buyer on the MLS. And I was like, “Oh my goodness. ” >> Wow. From the auction, I would have never expected you could do that. >> Yeah. And then what I realized is a lot of my appointments were similar situations where the house wasn’t a complete fixer upper. my cash offer didn’t fit for him. The house would pass FHA, you know, condition requirements and it wasn’t an absolute mess, but the seller wanted more money than what I could pay him for a cash transaction. So, I would just say, “Hey, if you’re willing to wait, you know, an extra 60 days, and I give you the extra 10,000, and if I’m fortunate enough to be able to take it to the market and sell it to an FHA retail buyer, I’m happy to give you the extra money, and I would keep the difference. ” And people just going, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ” and I was offering more than any other investor and they still had like a cash buyer experience, but they got more money in their pocket. So, I mean, I’ve done 2,000 of those deals since 2009. >> Wow. >> And at one point, I mean, five years ago, it was like 50 or 60% of our business. And what I realized is that inside of my lead funnel, more than half of my leads uh were a better fit for a noation offer than they were a cash offer. Like they were calling in and they wanted to sell it an easier way, but no way they were going to sell it for, you know, a discounted cash price. And they sort of didn’t want to deal with a realtor. Um but they didn’t even know this option existed. And they were just super thrilled when we made this offer to them. And uh I mean literally over 50 60% of all of my deals at 400 a year were novations. And and most of those were deals that we really couldn’t have done uh the conventional way of of wholesaling. It just wouldn’t the numbers wouldn’t work. >> Wow. Wow. So I didn’t realize that I didn’t realize that how long you guys have been doing them and you were literally doing them out of the auction. I mean, it makes sense if you’re working with a seller and and again, they just don’t want the cash offer and the house doesn’t need a ton of work and you can you’re the guy and again, you’ve always been good at dispo, right? You’ve got the buyers, you’ve got the FHA buyers lined up and just solving a problem, >> man. So, how what do you see as sort of the the long-term outlook? What is your outlook in the next say couple years on novations? Do you guys do more of them? You guys What’s it look like? >> Well, in Pennsylvania, they’re like not allowed anymore. And I say that with like an asterisk. Like there’s been Pennsylvania being one of the first that passed like heavy wholesaling legislation changes. So in the state of Pennsylvania, if you intend to wholesale or novate a property, uh the law requires you to disclose, be licensed. So disclose meaning you have to tell them, I’m not buying it. My plan is to novate or assign. The seller gets a 30-day right of recision, no questions asked. You have to be licensed, a licensed wholesaler. I mean, really, nothing that’s a super big deal. It just adds all of this red tape >> to a process. So, we’ve just completely pivoted. >> We just wholesale now. Like, we we wholesale and wholesale. >> Just buy it, clean it up, or buy it and clean it out and put it on the MLS. And the deals that would would have before been noation deals, we basically just do like either sub two or seller finance where I’ll just tell the seller that, you know, I’ll give you 160 instead of 120 cash. However, I need you to seller finance it for 3 months. I’ll give you a,000 bucks a month for three months and then I’ll pay off the balloon. So, we’ve had to again re-engineer how our processes work and this is no different. And it’s actually, you know, worked out better. Like sellers actually benefit a little bit more. It cost us a little bit more money because we’re making payments. But again, most of the people in our market haven’t changed. Like they’re operating either illegally or they don’t know or they’re out of compliance. So, you know, a lot of people when they invite us out to the property will ask, “Well, how have the new laws affected you and don’t you have to be licensed? ” And we’re like, “Yeah, matter of fact, we’ve changed our process. This is how it works. ” So, we don’t do many novations anymore in Pennsylvania. We still do business in Maryland. So, we do, you know, quite a bit of noations in Maryland because there was no change there. And, uh, we do, I don’t know, a handful of deals nationwide from referrals and JVS and still teach a ton of noations and do them across the country, but most of our deals now are just retail, fix, and flip uh, or whoale. >> Interesting. Well, yeah. Well, guys, if you are interested in like learning about it, like Eric is one of the best the the best across the country teaching how to do this the right way, the correct way, and and I know it’s become nuanced and different state by state, but if you guys are, we do a ton of them. We’ve done them for years. And to Eric’s point, like it’s just you’re serving a need and it it serves a need and you’re helping your seller. So, I love that. Eric, let’s go into more of the leadership stuff. I’m I want to hear how you’ve evolved and like I’ve I’ve be able to see it firsthand. And I’ve been able to listen to Eric teach about how they’ve led teams and how he’s iterated it through building his I mean I’m assuming it fundamentally comes back to way back when you guys first started the company, right? You you you left the car dealership and you’re like we need to go start hiring people, but I’d love to hear that sort of evolution and you could kind of maybe speed it up the last couple years because I know now you’re getting to do more high level stuff. You’re leading people like I just see the all the people you’ve led and the leaders of your company. >> It’s it’s inspiring. Are you bringing them in as a players or do you feel like you’re developing these people or both? >> Uh yeah, a little bit of both. I I think the the big chunks have been this and and and it’s not a story that’s really unique to mine. I mean, the more I learn and and spend my time now studying good business practices and how to grow organizations and grow people, it’s the natural evolution that virtually every business that’s around long enough goes through. And you start as a, you know, most of the time like a solo operator that’s in survival mode and we wear 30 different hats and we’re heavily focused on revenue because we only have a certain amount of resources. We’re not like a private equity funded organization that has five years of investment to operate in the red, >> right? Like we got to make money like literally in 60 days or we’re going back to our >> W2 job, right? you only have a certain amount of time and resources to work with. And then once you get through the survival mode and you have >> a little bit of consistent income, we we start to then hire out and delegate certain portions of the business. And the first couple hires we make, we’re not only like running a business and buying homes and overseeing renovations and working with banks, we now have to manage one or two or 10 people to do the stuff we were doing. and the skill set to do that is much different than what was required in order for us to to talk to customers. So now it’s like we’re reinventing oursel all over again. And then you know so in that phase you’re like still doing a lot and micromanaging a little and then over time what I realized was is that relationship would burn those people out about every 3 years. So when I was doing a lot and micromanaging and not leading and wasn’t focused on teaching and growing, I would have people that would come in, I attracted a certain demographic of person. They were very young, inexperienced, looking to break into real estate and make a big income, which wasn’t available to them in the normal market. And then they would come work for me. I’d teach them all this stuff, work them really hard, teach them a lot about real estate, and then three years they’d be burned out, and then they would leave. And then I’d be, “Oh my god, I just had all this turnover and all my people were leaving. ” And then I said, “Well, how do I get better at that? ” And I said, “Well, I got to stop managing and I got to start leading. ” Well, now I’m brand new all over again. Even though I’ve been in business 10 years, I’m now a brand new leader. I’m a I’m a nine-year experienced real estate investor and a newbie leader. So, it doesn’t matter that you’re in real estate. the job. You know, if you look at your job that you’re in now and you go, I’m so confident and I know where everything is and I go, great. Tomorrow you’re promoted to people that are two levels above you in a different wing of the business, you’d be lost in the sauce. Doesn’t matter that you’ve been in the business for 10 years. Your role is something you have no experience in. >> Yeah. >> And that comes with a lot of frustration and failure and aggravation and turnover and long days and early mornings and long nights. So, it was just each time my business reached a certain level, it required and put this upward pressure on me to move into something that I had to do that I hadn’t done before. And um it just turns out that’s the normal cycle of business that you go through. And you know, we’re at a phase now where we’ve earned the right to scale because we have predictable systems and processes and a um you know, a good culture and have great people. So to answer your last question is we still grow people. We just grow like B players and try and get them up to A players where before we were heavy on hiring like C players and then they would get capped out at like C++. And the only reason we it’s every everybody wants an A player and your definition of an A player will change over time. Like in the beginning for me it was someone that would just work really hard. That doesn’t cut it anymore. Like you actually have to be smart. You have to have high EQ. you have to align with our core values. You have to want to grow the way that we do. Uh and work really hard. So, you know, now the I think the toughest part when we went from like a six to a $10 million business, the number one fundamental thing that had to change was our approach to people. like how long we would tolerate performance issues, our willingness to turn away good candidates for a position to hold out for great, how quickly we coach someone through poor performance, how quickly we terminate someone, those decisions, you know, you can look at more leads and, you know, better lenders and all that stuff. number one change we we had to improve going from five to 10 and then whatever happens after 10 was our approach to people like I I just sent out an offer for a full-blown HR person. Never would have thought until a year like it’s a pretty significant salary. It’s 135 $150,000 salary for someone that’s an in-house recruiter. I think of the vision in my mind is you ever watch the show Billions? You know, the young lady that’s like the therapist coach for all of their salespeople and traders. That’s what I want. I want someone that’s like an HR compliance generalist, but also is able to align people’s personal goals, their attitude, their emotional skills, and all that stuff and basically act as a coach. So, it’s called HR, but really it’s an in-house performance coach that we hired. Well, I I hope that we hire. We’ve extended them an offer. we really like him. I think he wants to come work here. We’re working through the final details of uh what that would look like. But, you know, when I look at a breakdown in TC or a breakdown in acquisitions, to me, the root cause is not having great people, processes, and systems. I think to to me, I see everything through that filter today. It’s just what changed for me is everything, no matter what it looks like. A money issue, a renovation issue, an acquisition’s issue, a marketing issue, all comes back to a person issue. M >> wow. >> Maybe that’s not 100% right, but that’s the filter I see it through. So my focus right now is to be a place that attracts the top talent, have a process that gets them to come work here, and then have a culture that treats them a way that they never want to leave. >> Yeah. Oh, what a good what a hire, right? Like it makes total sense. And I’m sure just the ROI if of hiring that person now that this HR person that is truly like a coach and can grow those because if not Yeah. I mean it’s I’m assuming that’s fall upon you as the CEO, right? Or maybe some of your other leaders to to really develop them. >> Yeah, that’s the tough part is that, you know, normally you would look at that and say it’s a department level position, but I I think if you were to look at most jobs and industries, you know, and you think back on, you know, my job at the car dealership or when I worked in the mortgage business, most of the time my manager was out fighting fires and particularly either dealing with underperformers or upset customers. And then like the good performers >> and the great performers were kind of left alone. >> Yeah. >> Which that’s not right either. Like one one of the biggest mistakes I think organizations make is like poor performers or low performers get most of their attention. And while there has to be support and coaching to help people evolve, the worst thing you can do is have a a high or excellent performer feel isolated or unsupported or worst case not have a clear path of what growth looks like for them and then they leave. That’s why in our organization, I bet you’ve heard a hundred times in our industry where people have hired, trained someone, and they went out on their own and it really pissed off the operator and they’re like, I’m not going to hire and do that anymore. Those people just go out and start that. What’s hiring good talent’s not the problem. Teaching them everything’s not the problem. The problem is is that you didn’t clearly articulate what a growth plan would look like for them and they felt stuck. And the only way for them to feel like they were making progress in their life was to go do something else. It’s not their fault, it’s yours. >> Yep. >> So, you know, that would be a big thing is clearly having a well articulated growth plan for everybody in the organization to go from entry level to owner like and not everybody’s going to want it, but at least they would know that it’s available. What’s I think the military does a great job of that, right? Like before I got in the car business, I was in the US Army. And it’s the most objective promotion process in the world, right? Like if you want to go from a private to this, you got to shoot like this, you got to run like this, you got to do this many push-ups, you got to go to this course, and you got to be in for this long. And then if you want, you go in front of a board and they vote and you get the promotion. Or you don’t. And then if you didn’t, they tell you why. And then you go back to work on that until you’re ready to come back in front of the board again. So that’s what I like to create is a super objective promotion process where people can just because here’s what happens. You end up with inspired effort where you have someone in an entry- level position that can clearly see a pathway to 100k or 150 or 250 or their first rental or a management position or an executive level position or a COO position. So you have someone making $45,000 a year working as if they make a hundred. So I believe what happens is in that environment when you have that type of commitment to personal and professional growth you get a exceptional amount of discretionary effort. And I think that’s what really makes the difference when you Jim Collins says great organizations hire five people pay them like seven and they work like 10. Wow. Hire five, pay them like seven, they work like 10. Everybody wins, right? The owner is getting the work of 10 people only paying them for seven. >> Yep. >> And there’s five people splitting up a paycheck that’s intended for seven. >> So, it’s a lot of work. I may have said it in a way that sounds super simple and it’s like cool to summarize it to like a bumper sticker. That stuff’s hard. It it it requires a ton of one, it’s new to me. I’m not an expert in that. Like I can nail an ARV and tell you how much a Renault is and negotiate a house deal asleep. >> Leading imperfect humans down an imperfect dark kind of path towards their personal and professional development that most people if you ask a hundred people Casey where they want to be in 10 years, how many of them you think can fire it off like that? >> Yeah. Never. That’s what I’m trying to do more of but they’re not thinking about it. >> Yeah. 100%. So like trying to coach somebody through that and as an organization be able to tell people where we want to go in 10 years. Go to most business. How many businesses can tell you where they want to be in 10 years? Like none. >> Most of them would say out of business because I’ve made enough money but I got to work my face off so much right now I can’t even imagine it. And then next thing you know 10 years goes by and they’re no further along than they were 10 years earlier. So, it’s hard because business requires a lot of time and customers are needy and we got to pay bills and leads need to be called and houses got to be walked and banks got to be paid. So, we’re in a phase now where we’ve we’ve made a significant commitment to infrastructure and people and uh you know I’m prepared if if what happens is to have a reduction in margin knowing that over time it’ll be paid back two to five to 10. That’s the greatest thing that I’ve learned from private equity, right? What do we do as entrepreneurs? We start with a x amount of money and we make a bunch of decisions based on our budget and and based on remaining profitable where private equity says here’s the right way to do things. We’re going to go out and raise enough money that for the next five years we can run the right way even if we don’t make money. Like has Uber made a dollar yet? >> And it’s one of the most valuable companies in the world, right? So, we don’t have the luxury of doing that as small business owners and entrepreneurs, but there’s some wisdom in that. If you start a business and you hire what you can afford and as many people as you can afford, you might not make as much as you should because you’re running an imperfect operation and just trying to make it work. So, you know, I’m fortunate that we’re at a point where we’ve been around long enough and the company is liquid and we have savings and we have reserves where if we take a 20%, let’s say, reduction in short-term net profit, but now we’re able to go into two markets at a time or four markets over the next year, and I’m able to enjoy a different lifestyle than I was doing it the old way. There’s worse things to do than to make a a million bucks a year working 15 hours a week. Yeah. >> Versus working 70 and making 1. 5 like >> agreed. >> And that decision I think has to be made by each individual person, you know, and over time that may change based on their family situation and their age and their health, but there’s a lot of wisdom there. What everybody hates about corporate, they generally have business structure figured out. >> That’s funny, man. So much there, Brewer. you were like, that’s why I was excited to get into this with you today cuz I’ve seen you do this on stage and lead rooms and do this and just you could see I mean you’ve been passionate the whole time, but you could see it ratcheted up a level when you started talking about developing people in the process. Yeah. And even the corporate, it’s funny, we’ve had conversations with my COO the last couple weeks about like the stuff we hated about our corporate jobs. They they were those systems were they grew like that for a reason. So I that’s good. Well, let’s wrap up with this, Eric. We talked all about the process, but I know family is big for you. I know the the kids. I know your like your priorities. I’m just if you could share a little bit how that’s evolved over the years and you just touched on a little bit about like having the time now, maybe make it a little bit less, but the availability and what you can now do with your time. I’d be curious, just give me kind of quick thoughts on how that’s evolved. >> Yeah. Real quick story. Literally before this, I was on on a Zoom call with a coaching client and we were viewing his numbers and he’s going to have his best year ever. 7 and 12 million gross, 3 million net. Amazing numbers. 40% net margin. We’re half of that 20%. He runs a very small operation and a week ago had a massive anxiety attack. He could give two shits about that 3 million bucks. He wants some peace back. And you know, money matters a lot until it doesn’t. It’s one of those things where it’s like, you know, you you can talk to some of the most successful pe I think the most famous one is Steve Jobs, right? on his deathbed he would have given it all back billions for like live another 6 months and he was taken way too soon. So I think there has this this this balance of when you look at an organization of how we manage margin and our ability to be home. I know one thing that’s important to you I’ve heard you say numerous times the ability to coach your son’s football team means the world to you. And I reflect back and you know when I got into real estate, my son was 2 years old and by the time he was five I was coaching football. Some of my best pictures of me and him like holding a trophy. I’ll get emotional talking about it, but like at the time I didn’t realize it, right? Like I made a sacrifice. I took a leap of faith. It required a lot of courage to go out and do this thing. And I knew I was going to get some more freedom, but I didn’t I didn’t actually even as it was happening, I didn’t realize it was happening. You know, it’s kind of like when you’re on vacation and you take a picture and you’re like, you know, I just freaking just want to get back to the beach, but then the next week you go back to work and you look in that picture and go, man, I’d kill to go back to the beach. >> Mhm. >> Well, you know, each year goes by and you’re looking at beach pictures from 10 years ago. And I have six kids, so like you can imagine how many photos I have of my 22year-old when he was five and my 10-year-old when she was four and my nineyear-old when she was six and my two-year-old when he was born. And it’s like, and some of the the the best moments of my life are captured in my phone as a picture of me not making money. >> Like actually pulling myself away from something that pays me a ton of money and doing something that costs me money. And and not only do I’m not making the money, I’m spending money going to these freaking AOU tournaments and football spikes and funnel cakes and French fries and helmets and all this crap. And that is way more valuable to me than a million bucks. >> Yeah. >> But there’s this balance of like there’s freedom requires finance. So there’s this very unique to every person tugofwar of how much will I give away to hire people and implement structure or just shut down on Sundays or not work till 8:00 trying to get every deal or whatever. And finding that harmony of like how much money do I need and how much time do I need to spend with the people that I care most about? Because one of the things I’ve heard people say that’s like the biggest lie in the world is I’m working 75 hours a week for the people I love. And I guarantee if you go ask the people they love if they want the money or their dad, 90% of the people are going to say their dad or their mom or their aunt or their uncle or their cousin or their sister. Nobody gives a about money when they’re dying. >> And the one thing I know for certain is everybody’s going to die. So, but at the same time, right, the other side of that coin is is it’s really nice having money. >> Yeah. >> And it’s really nice being able to go on vacations. And so, you have to finance your freedom. >> Yeah. >> And everybody’s got to find that different mix. And doing really good work that matters to me is the best way to make big paychecks and still have a ton of a ton of freedom. Like the ability to just be passionate and extremely competent at something is how you can work a manageable amount of hours, have more money than you could ever need. >> Yeah. Oh man, the dichotomy it’s I’ve struggled with for years. I know everybody does and and I know it’s Yeah. Like it’s like you didn’t maybe give a concrete answer there because it’s such a dichotomy. But my takeaway, Eric, is just that that lens that you’re looking through that and and I’ve never No one’s ever said that and I’ve never looked it through that lens of those photos. I do the same thing when I’m at sitting with my wife when we’re looking at old pictures of kids. Like, it’s not me closing a deal or working. It’s us spending time and not making money with these kids. And that’s You’re right. You and the more of those you make, that’s that’s the definition. But Eric, man, anything anything else you want to share before we wrap up? This has been And you just you just wrapped it perfectly, by the way. It’s awesome to be able to have these conversations and it’s not often that I sit and by myself say, “How’d you get started? ” So, it’s extremely like cool for me to tell that story and reflect on it and then all of the emotions and sort of enlightenment and lessons that come with it is uh very therapeutic for me. So, I just love it’s kind of like when you ask me, “What do you want to talk about? ” I don’t know. Just ask me questions and we’ll see where it goes. >> Yeah. >> So, nothing nothing better than a good story. And uh we’re all writing our own right now. So I think it’s cool just to to have a chance to tell it every once in a while. >> Well, cool. Well, Eric, we appreciate you so much. This is going to be so val. It was valuable for me. Again, I knew today selfishly I was going to be able to learn a ton. And I know anybody who listens this is going to appreciate it. And like I said, just the perspective you gave at the end with all the hustle of what it all ties into and it all means, that’s what it’s all about. So, thanks again, Eric. >> I agree. Thanks, man. If you’re listening to this because you’re chasing freedom, not just for yourself, but for your family, then don’t let this just be the background noise. Take action. Shoot me a DM. Reach out. Find a property. Make a call. Remember, small moves today create the life your future self and your family will thank you for tomorrow.